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This week, Sony took its first step away from long drawn-out console generations with the PS4 Pro, an upgraded console that builds on the foundation set by the original PS4, but offering more power to those looking for it. It wasn't competition from Xbox that spurred this decision though, Sony actually sees PC gaming as the PS4's biggest competitor this generation.
Sony Interactive Entertainment head, Andrew House, spoke to The Guardian this week, explaining that when the PS4 Pro was initially conceived, it was due to numbers from last generation, showing a dip in hardware sales mid-cycle while PC gaming grew in popularity.
“I saw some data that really influenced me. It suggested that there’s a dip mid-console lifecycle where the players who want the very best graphical experience will start to migrate to PC, because that’s obviously where it’s to be had. We wanted to keep those people within our eco-system by giving them the very best and very highest performance quality. So the net result of those thoughts was PlayStation 4 Pro – and, by and large, a graphical approach to game improvement.”
House also pointed out that when the PS4 Pro was initially concieved, nobody had predicted Microsoft's Project Scorpio plans, so this isn't necessarily a reaction to that.
KitGuru Says: It is great that Sony wants to try and compete with PC and everything, but I don't necessarily agree with the heavy graphical approach. A lot of PC gamers generally prefer higher frame rates over higher resolutions, which is the opposite of what Sony is pushing with the PS4 Pro. What do you guys think of the PS4 Pro? Do you think upgrading hardware every three or four years is a smart move for consoles?
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😀 Oh Sony, so you are viewing PC-gaming as a threat to your console market? It is already late to ‘save’ your market Sony, it is already late. It’s all lost. You’ve gone too far with the cash-cow. Your actions have scared even your casual gamers…
Anyway, as a future game developer, I will not be working on any console games and I will try to convince other indie devs against you. If your platform runs out of good games, then the PS4 Pro you are building will be a dead metal box full of useless junk.
lol so that hunkajunk competes with an i7K and Titan X or even a GTX1080 for that matter, in your dreams Sony. I’ll buy it when your bringing out your next next Gen and get the decent games that never got a PC release off ebay for a few quid each the same as I did with the PS3.
sony have no chance in hell of ever getting the same power or equivalent frame rates as you get on a gaming pc, each time sony or even xbox bring a new box out pc gaming are 3-4 years ahead maybe more each time and its cheaper to upgrade and fix a pc, and most games that are coming out now on console are on pc aswell and even cheaper… so for the console people out there i would not wast money on the new consoles, you can get a mid range gaming pc for around 400 witch is about the same as the new consoles, but a mid range pc can do better then the new consoles…
The fact that they made the Pro with the reason to compete with the PC as opposed to the reason of bringing consoles to a modern era of technology just makes the product laughable to me now
If I buy a console over PC. I have access to a dozen or 2 good exclusive games I might not see on PC- at least for a while.
If I buy a PC over a console, I have access to 10,000 good exclusive games dating ALL THE WAY BACK TO DOS AND EVEN EARLIER, that you won’t ever get to play on console.
Why do people buy consoles then? Ignorance basically.
Because they think you can’t use a PC from your couchtv, andor don’t know how to use computers well enough to get going. That’s it. There is no other good reason. They are not cheaper, their games cost a lot more then pc games tend to- and take much longer to go on sale then they would on PC. And then you don’t have mod support like you do on PC too.
Obsolete is the word that need be applied to consoles.
It is time for 1 platform- no more exclusives!
PC MASTER RACE cannot be stopped. We are freedom.
Sony and Microsoft have known for a while that PC is winning. They see steam exploding onto the scene. It’s too late indeed. We already see both companies starting the baby steps of their own PC online shop to compete with steam in the future. This will be good for the consumers in the long run.
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Why, it’ll make VR much better… The description is almost exactly a Polaris 480…
Then you don’t know how consoles work… They don’t have the overhead like a PC does… So it uses 100% for rendering and not desktop maintenance…
For $399…? Are you smoking meth…?
Consoles are great for many reasons, just plug it in and run the game. No need to worry about the latest drivers. No need to worry about the case, PS, MB, KB, MS, Ram, CPU, GPU, cooling and monitor, just plug in and go for 400, not bad.
You just insert the disc and play? We are not in the ’90s anymore Dorothy.
Pc gaming is not in danger, Pc gaming IS the danger! 😛
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You’re spitballing if you can build a midrange PC from-the-ground-up for around $400 without going for used or salvaged parts from another, whereas someone going console isn’t likely to buy pre-owned anything. Why should they, just do you can have a point?
As it has been for years, no brand new PC at equal cost to a brand new console will match in performance; that isn’t the point for the PC, although that is the point for the console. The advantage to PC is modularity, the advantage to console is simplicity.
As for console never matching the capabilities of PC, you’re right if you add that the caveat of keeping up with technology change regularly, taking advantage of the modularity of PC environment– but if you’re like most PC gamers that don’t upgrade often, let alone get the best, these newer consoles follow close enough in cycles and cost less upfront hardware.
Also add that drivers for the hardware are written by the game developers and built into each game. It’s the whole reason how technology years old can run newer games, whereas in the PC universe, the minimum requirements are constantly changing with every generation. Great example is Crysis 3 on Xbox360, the minimum requirements for the PC port needed a graphis card four times faster than the console’s GPU. That’s a lot of API overhead.
The only way to create an end-all console at this point is to overdesign for a higher price-point, it would be overkill for most gamers (console and PC), and that is the point.
We can’t all be Hookers
If you buy 50 games for the PS4 (at least in the UK) from the difference in price of PC games alone you’d save enough to build a £1000 PC.
Why get a console if the games purchased are multi-platform? I understand your point, but the argument against console often ignores or downplays the exclusives. Granted, what do most people do, they get more than exclusives; but we can’t ask them to get two gaming systems, that would cost too much if the goal is to reduce spending (unless that wasn’t the goal). But if someone intends on a console exclusive at all, can they have their cake and eat it too?
Someone would have to get way less than 50 games to justify console; that doesn’t mean they are by definition casual, rather are really into the few titles they have. But if any are multi-platform, well, we’d have to figure out their perogative before criticizing their decision not to play them on PC.
4K at 30fps doesn’t need an i7K and Pascal high-end, which BTW can’t be had for $400. If anything, SONY is competing with AMD: A from-the-ground-up tower system alone with an AMD Polaris may have at most a RX470 to keep the costs below $400, but the SONY PS4 Pro has 2304-sp in there, so it’s faster.
Clarify it: high-end PC gaming may never be under threat by consoles.
But the very nature of consoles are capable of attacking every other segment of PC gaming, but going higher up the scale than they have risks a lower return on investment, which is why SONY/MS aren’t making $700+ consoles with better hardware. Target market wouldn’t get it, and none of you guys would make the swap.
“Anyway, as a future game developer, I will not be working on any console games and I will try to convince other indie devs against you.”
I’d really like to see you bear fruit on this, as i think you’ll fold. Unless you are involved with the business and publisher, and it could take your entire career to get there, making money will always trump some idiotic passion for or hate against a particular gaming platform. You just won’t have a choice, short of quitting the developer job for another, on which platform you make games for. I really wish you luck, but you have the wrong idea of how to approach this. You aren’t paying attention to what your customers’ want, that matters more than your own agenda.
Considering the PSVR comes with its own external graphics card to utilize I don’t think it would make much of a difference for VR performance. Besides, with a lot people choosing consoles as a cheaper option over PC gaming I can’t see many people buying both a PSVR and a Pro
Broh, there are quite a few companies that are PC Gamer Pro out there, and you know who that includes? – the almighty Chris Roberts. And no he won’t be porting his project to the consoles, that’s not gonna happen … Oh and did I mention Valve? And which genres are the consoles missing – RTS, MMORPGs (how many have you see on a console)? 😀 see there are many that I could get a job in, and I wouldn’t give a F**k about consoles…
I’d better buy a Vive and upgrade to the next high end GPU… that’s better 🙂
You build a computer once and upgrade it as you please.
Latest drivers? I can install them as I please. On a console you’re forced to install updates the moment they come out.
Don’t forget that consoles have watered down versions to play. Lower resolutions and graphical quality.
Consoles are cheap because they’re made at a loss. And you can indeed build PCs with new hardware that outmatch a console. It’s already been done for the Pro.
“Consoles are cheap because they’re made at a loss.”
Duh, but the average console user doesn’t care and sometimes isn’t aware, I doubt it would affect their decision to still get it.
“And you can indeed build PCs with new hardware that outmatch a console.”
No, I said “no brand new PC at equal cost to a brand new console will match in performance”. The reason people go to console is because it is cheaper to start. What you said has been obvious since the PC vs console argument began, so what, outmatch = costs more than the console.
You said it has already been done with the Pro, at what cost? Well you disregard that because performance is more important– which is the exact opposite of the typical console user, so no duh you don’t get it. It certainly isn’t possible for $400 since an RX480 + WIn10 OS is already $300; you just can’t get brand new CPU + PSU + RAM + mobo for $100. Hence, spitballing.
To argue ‘spend more for better’ as the fix to a problem lacks spending efficiency. Spending twice as much doesn’t get you twice the performance because the graphics card alone is equal to the console– you can’t bring people into the PC gaming community when you ignore that higher performanbce doesn’t scale with the cost. You take for granted that you can afford it.
Versions of what? Too many here claim their PC games are console-ports, so the PC version is watered down, the console version isn’t.
Besides, what kind of performance is expected on a console-port to PC if running with minimum system requirements, is it any different from what you call “lower resolutions and graphical quality”? It should be identical if it is a true port, all things equal– but that’s the catch, it isn’t equal, min sys req on PC is always different than the console’s specs. You’re either ignoring the discrepency or don’t put weight on it.
I always thought that was because console ports suck ass? A game made for console won’t run well on pc and will require : Some stupid 100GB install and a ton of ram.
Game devs that make games mainly for console don’t give a f— about pc gamers.
One thing you forget is that with PC you can use hardware you already have.
You can build a PC that outperforms a console for less than a price of a console, and now with the PS4 Pro, all you have to do is upgrade a part or two and boom, you’ve outperformed the latest console with only a small upgrade.
You need to buy a whole new console every time one comes out.
You only have to upgrade a PC when you feel like it. You don’t need to build a whole new one.
What would you rather, One PC to rule them all, or a bunch of consoles that aren’t backwards compatible and you have to buy new controllers, same games, and pay a monthly fee just to go online and each new console costing a full price instead of swapping out a part or two for a fraction of the cost.
How is game sales on console? Back when i had an xbox 360 i borrowed all my games from my brother and we just shared whatever we got. But it was all 60 bucks a pop.
On pc i just buy cheap ass bundles. Steam sales, piracy, almost-piracy(game key sites). I can’t remember when I last bought a game at full price.
I won’t buy a console anymore though. I’m too invested in my rig and upgrading will be like 250ish for an RX480 and i can sell my old GPU to make it even cheaper. Plus I only have a 25″ monitor. And when i think console, i think lazy couch TV
RX 480? Why? You don’t need one to have a better PC than what a console offers.
Here you go: http://pcpartpicker.com/list/qNJgBP
A $400 dollar build that will outclass any current console any day of the week, with higher resolution, higher framerate, free internet access (no need to pay for PS Plus), you get backwards compatibility with every single game ever released on the PC, ever. You get most of the console games through emulation from the Magnavox Odyssey to the Wii U. You get a MUCH larger game library, you have more exclusives on the PC than all consoles ever released combined, you get much cheaper games, free games, abandonware, compatibility with any game controller you want to use, including every game controller for every current console, if something needs repair, you can repair it without losing warranty, and the warranty is per part, so, you don’t have to send your entire computer away, should you need to repair. Also, if you want to upgrade, you won’t lose any warranty because there is no seal no break on your case. Mods in many, many games, you have practically the entire the indie scene on the PC, and you get much better multiplayer support, including LAN. OH, and if you want couch gaming, you can also do it, just plug in a controller and turn on Big Picture on Steam.
And about Win10, you can get it for free if you’re a student or you can get another OS if you want because that’s the whole point, you don’t HAVE to stick to what THEY tell you. YOU get to choose. Go crazy, build a PC for YOU, with blackjack and hookers.
Dude, there’s nothing wrong with a console. Its convenient, easy as shit to install and there are still some very tasty games that are exclusive to one console or another (Last of Us, Red Dead Redemption), but yes, a $400 PC will smoke any console. Even at the time of their launch they were underpowered. This is not the 90’s where having a PC was very expensive and you only really got one if you could work with it. PC hardware is cheap, getting cheaper, always evolving and can hold up much longer. Hell, I still use a GPU from four generations ago, one weaker than the one I just recommended in the link I provided, and still play every game I get my hands on. GTA V at 60Hz? No problem, I’ll run it on high settings. Wanna play some Doom? Crank eveything up and I get 70Hz.
This is the same reason why they are also bad. Do you think any of the console gamers know what is in their console? Very few do, cuz most don’t care – they bought it to play, and what is what matters to them…
And this is the issue. By going into PC gaming, you gotta care about your components, installing drivers, software and teaking your games. On top comes modding and tweaking different types of AA (now that really is the premium and luxury feature of the PC) and obviously catching the game sales that are most popular on PC. Now all of that would be quite a learning curve to somebody new to the PC, but having that learning is indeed worth it! In the end you will see the advantage of the PC at some point through that learning, and going back to a console would seem like going into the past. At least it seemed to me when i played on xbone with a friend, it really did suck bad compared to how im used to play.
And the 2nd thing – knowing more about how hardware work is not a wasted knowledge – it just came free when you moved to PC gaming, and you just learned it all by experience and research.
Pricing: $400 + 60$/year + $60/game. Now doesn’t that seem a bit too much for you in a long term? Wouldn’t it be preferable to pay the big money first ($1000) and then get the same games on Steam for less than $20. You would basically get saving from the first year. Calculate it and you will see. For one console generation, you would save as much as $500 that you can either throw it to more hardware or keep them for yourself.
And finally the features and games – you know who wins here. It is obvious that PC has way more features, you can do other things than just gaming, it is compatible with a lot more gaming hardware – all the console gamepads, joysticks and whatever you can think of. And with backwards compatibility to the first PC game created, the exclusive games count are a couple of times more than the combined all the console games, including PS3 and XB360 that only some can be played through emulation in newer hardware.
What I see new consoles as: Simply an “entry level” into digital gaming, yeah, if you have been under a rock or are for the first time gamer then perhaps console is for you. Other than that it is really there for the casual kids to sit on the family old TV and play Mortal Combat with friends. I played it for 1 hour on a friend’s PS3 and then I just left knowing that console wasn’t what i thought it was and im never buying or playing one anymore.
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I hope they continue to fragment the PS4 player base to make people just go to PC lol. I’d be upset if the console i bought only had a good game come out 2 years after release only to have it replaced in the third year and then games going forward really only working best on the new version.
They say it won’t effect current ps4 owners but if they lag with 30fps shooters vs ps4 pro with 60fps there is a huge advantage. Then they’ll make it so PS4 Pro can only play with other PS4 Pro or they will cap it to be the same at 30fps like the regular lol. They may go the route like New Nintendo 3DS and have the newer better games only work on the new platform.
Fragmentation will pwn them.
Actually, PC gaming was in a very dire state before, luckily Steam came in and making it win over console gaming. If Sony or Microsoft somehow are able to make a platform like Steam for their console, in terms of gaming catalogs and price, I’m pretty sure PC gaming will slow down.
PS4 Pro has a GPU with 2304-stream processors, it is double the original PS4 and happens to be similar to RX480. Like I’ve said elsewhere, to make a $400 new PC build, you’d have to cheap out on the graphics card and CPU, you end up with a Pentium/Althon coupled with a RX460 type, which is slower than the PS4 Pro.
An RX 480 has more than one Teraflop in excess of the PS4 Pro’s GPU. Even the RX 470 has more teraflop performance than the GPU on a PS4 Pro. You can’t pick one aspect of an entire GPU architecture and say “there, it’s the same”.
PS4 Pro GPU < RX 470 < RX 480. The RX 470 is marginally worse than a 480, but it's still almost a terfalop's difference to the GPU in a PS4 Pro.
With the 470 you have a little less stream processors, but on clock speed and architecure differences alone it beats the PS4 Pro, easily. A GPU's performance is not defined by it's amount of stream processors. The lowest current generation card from nVidia has only 1280 CUDA cores (their version of Stream Processors) and complete destroys any RX470, 480 or PS4 GPU you throw at it. Don't even try to compare it. Even with less VRAM, the texture compression on a PC GPU is much better, not to mention the 8GB on the consoles are shared, not dedicated like on a discerte GPU.
You won't have "4k gaming experience" either, you'll have upscaled videos, not even games. If you want to buy a PS4, hey, more power to you. But don't propagate false advertising and lies that you hear from marketing vultures. What's next? The human eye can't see over 24fps? 30fps is "more cinematic"? High fps makes people sick? Oh dear me, gaming in 60 fps since I was 10, I must be blind by now.
Stop listening to marketeers and listen to the science with which the components are built.
Crysis 3 needed… what? Crysis (all of them) on the consoles was MASSIVELY downgraded, just take a look at the image.
The minimum requirements of Crysis were a Radeon HD 5770, which was four years old at the time, and about $90. And keep in mind, the image shows the PC version running in 1080p, while in the consoles it was 720p.
And drivers for the hardware built by game developers and built into the game? What? That doesn’t even make sense. Game developers don’t build hardware drivers, hardware manufacturers do. And hardware drivers are not built into the game, they’re built into the OS of the console.
So, yes, the HD 5770 was much better than Xenos, but the game in the console also ran at fewer than half the pixels, half the framerate AND with much less detail, it’s nothing to do with overhead. Older hardware can run newer games because the games are downgraded, like it has always been since the Magnavox Odyssey and the ZX Spectrum. Take a look at Doom in the SNES in the second image.
There is no such thing in computation as zero overhead, which kinda disproves your “100% for rendering” hypothesis.
And consoles also have an OS, they always had one, it’s kinda needed to make hardware, you know… do things. Even a microwave has an OS, it’s just firmware instead of software.
By 100% I mean very little overhead… The OS is run by the CPU part… There is almost no frame buffer like Windows or Linux, which have an entire subsystem for 2D…
The difference is nowhere near making a difference between $400 worth of a current console hardware and $400 of a PC equivalent. With $400 on a PC you’ll be gaming in 1080p@60 easily, and still have full functionality of a much more complete OS.
To match basic functionality you’d have to add $60 for online services, which are free on PC, and you can push the difference even further. No overhead in the world will make up for the difference in cost of manufacture of a closed system. You’ll either lose in price or in performance, you can’t have both without taking a loss, even at the time of PS3’s launch, which was launched at loss, indeed. Never mind 10 years later with hardware getting better and cheaper.
I’m not saying PCs aren’t faster, I’m saying consoles are more efficient…
Overhead-wise? Sure, at a cost to functionality, but hey, who buys a console for video rendering or programming?
The consoe wasn’t made to do that but it could use cloud programming and apps…
I have NEVER argued that a $400 gaming console could beat a $400 GPU, but the issue is that Bristol Ridge should be able to play 1080p games and a 7nm Zen chip will get close to 1070 or 1080 gaming…
The biggest problem consoles have is price and heat… PS4 Pro is running at 350W and should be able to run 1440p native… PS4 programming is as good as Mantle and we can see the kind of increases it gives PC games…
I very much doubt about the 1440p, unless they still target 30Hz, which would be mind numbingly stupid at this point.
And there are already some APUs with 1080p@30Hz capabilites, even the iGPU on my i5 6600 runs stuff like GTA V or CS:GO at 1080p with playable framerates, never mind AMD’s APUs which tend to have better results GPU-wise. And the next generation APU/iGPUs should bring the Hz farther along, which does not bode well for consoles, unless they fall into a PC-like cycle of small incremental upgrades two or three years apart, or just make the whole traversal and just become closed system PCs all together.
Vive is not expensive considering the specs and 970 gtx cost lowest $180 ,high $200. Besides u probably think it’s better to by psvr but u need 90fps each eye PSvr is giving 60fps. U really want that any where near your eyes?
No, RX 480 has 2304 SPs like PS4 Pro and just look at Vulkan DOOM 4K… The whole system at 16nm is pulling 351W, there’s a bunch more under the hood since 8 Jaguar core is probably a lot less than the 175W remaining … A full RX 480 may pull 180W and it handles all outputs, H265, HDMI2, DP1.3, etc… Even HDMI HD Audio…
Sony has a PDF questions sheet that says it outputs native 4K to compatible TVs…
Even an RX 470 is more powerful than the PS4 Pro’s GPU. SMs aren’t everything, you have to take into account the rest of the GPU, meaning higher frequency, higher compute performance, etc.. And even then, an RX 480 barely breaks 30Hz on the best optimized game with the best optimized API derived from an API built by the card manufacturer themselves and paired with a better CPU. Never mind that DOOM is practically a miracle when it comes to performace. Everyone and their dog can play that game at high resolutions and fast. I was amazed that I could play it on Ultra at 1080p with my four years old card with over 70Hz average. I actually googled for bugs, thinking that something was wrong.
But unless you think 30Hz to play a DOOM game is enough, or that the console can survive on one game alone, it’s never going to happen. Are you ever going to have a FIFA, Uncharted, Battlefield, COD or Last of Us at 4k. Not even in Sony’s wildest dreams. They’re struggling to hit 1080p@60Hz on a dozen games out of their entire catalog (read, AAA games; any console can it 1080p@60Hz on Spelunky or Plants vs Zombies), and that’s with fps dips all over the place. Even they said that 4k was just for videos and through upscaling, not real 4k.
If a PC can’t do it for the price, a console surely won’t at the same price, given price overhead and power/heat constrains into account.
What is your issue…? 480 Vulkan DOOM is consistently above 1440p60… But again with a console you can fully optimize JUST FOR THE GAME… And the game can optimize just for the chip…
You’re taking PC games and saying they won’t run… But most games are created for consoles… BF4 1080p under Mantle was playable by a Kaveri desktop with quad at twice the clock…
Vulkan DOOM tried to achieve what’s possible with console games… AMD is working on a top down Civilization release using DX12…
We may just finally be seeing OpenGL being faster than DX…
What does 1440p have to do with 4k? You talked about 4k, now you’re changing to 1440p? 1440p is much less straining of a GPU than 4k, it’s not even comparable. And what do you think optimizations are? The second coming? How many dozens of games have been optimized for consoles and ran like crap when compared to PC standards? How many console exclusives ran at subpar resolutions with subpar framerates and subpar graphics?
Most games are created for consoles? In what world? There are more exclusives for the PC than there are non-exclusive games for all the consoles combined. “Vulkan DOOM tried to achieve what’s possible with console games”? What does than even mean? There has never been a console game that even comes close to being remotely on par with the quality of the DOOM release when it comes to technical resources relative to performance optimization. And OGL has been faster than DX a number of times, it really depends on the engine.
People have been talking about console specific optimizations since the release of PS3, and we’re yet to see the fruits of said miracle of technology. All the optimization in the world won’t help underpowered hardware. This is computer science, not magic.
I said already, the Vive IS better than a PSVR. PS4 Pro will suck along with its VR, while I am running Vive at 90FPS with Dynamic Super Resolution of 4K downscaled to the resolution of the Vive. No actually, that’s too crap, Vive isn’t enough, I am actually going to buy the Star VR with is massive 210-degree FOV and 5120×1440 @ 120FPS and play Star Citizen on ultra. PC Master Race FTW!
Actually the PC as a platform can never really die because of its open nature, it adapts to whatever is thrown at it, if Steam didn’t come about, someone else would of took that spot, Microsoft tried it’s best to slow down the PC with the internet browsers but Firefox soon open that up and got them moving again, Microsoft tried to hold back DirectX but AMD soon got them moving and now we have Vulkan and DirectX 12, thats why the PC can’t really be beat by consoles, too many companies fighting to push it forward, also what’s really made the PC more appealing the last few years is the price, PC’s are not that much more expensive than consoles and work out cheaper in the long run.
Personally I think it’s a mistake for Sony to be targeting higher end PC gamers because that could backfire, I’m already seeing signs that a lot more gamers are looking into building or buying there own PC since Sony announce PS4 Pro.