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Project Cars dev responds to AMD performance accusations

Slightly Mad Studios, the developer behind recently released racing sim, Project Cars, has responded to accusations that it has purposefully sabotaged the game's performance for those using AMD graphics cards. The rumors began to spread once a post on Reddit claimed that the entire Project Cars engine was built around Nvidia technology.

The lengthy Reddit post claimed that the author's R9 290X was getting the same frame rate as an Nvidia GTX 760, despite being much more powerful. The author believed that PhysX was the culprit: “The entire Project Cars engine itself is built around a version of PhysX that simply does not work on AMD cards.”

Project-CARS-4-e1413552397863

The Reddit thread has since been labelled as ‘misleading' and Slightly Mad Studios has responded, stating that it didn't favor Nvidia over AMD for this game and maintained that it has a good relationship with both graphics companies.

“For the past few days, erroneous information posted on Reddit and other websites has spread misinformation with regards to Project Cars' performance on systems using AMD GPUs”, the statement reads. The developer then gives a lengthy list of rebuttals, which you can read below:

  • “NVidia are not “sponsors” of the project. The company has not received, and would not expect, financial assistance from third-party hardware companies.
  • The Madness engine runs PhysX at only 50Hz and not at 600Hz as mentioned in several articles
  • The Madness engine uses PhysX for collision detection and dynamic objects, which is a small part of the overall physics systems
  • The Madness engine does not use PhysX for the SETA tyre model or for the chassis constraint solver (our two most expensive physics sub-systems)
  • The Madness engine does not use PhysX for the AI systems or for raycasting, we use a bespoke optimized solution for those
  • The physics systems run completely independently of the rendering and main game threads and utilizes 2 cores at 600Hz
  • The physics threading does not interact with the rendering, it is a push system sending updated positional information to the render bridge at 600Hz
  • Any performance difference with PhysX would not be reflected with differences in comparing rendering frame rates. There is no interaction between PhysX and the rendering
  • Overall, PhysX uses less than 10% of all physics thread CPU on PC. It is a very small part of the physics system so would not make a visual difference if run on the CPU or GPU
  • Direct involvement with both Nvidia and AMD has been fruitful in assisting with the game performance at various stages of development. Both AMD and nVidia have had access to working builds of the game throughout development, and they have both tested builds and reported their results and offered suggestions for performance improvements.
  • Testing of the game with different driver versions has produced a variety of performance results on both Nvidia and AMD hardware. This is entirely to be expected as driver changes cannot always be tested on every game and every card, and this is the reason why both companies produce game-specific driver profiles, to ensure that they can get the best out of the game.
  • Project Cars does not use Nvidia specific particle technology–the system we use is a modified version of the same technology we used on the Need for Speed: Shift and Shift Unleashed games, and was entirely developed in-house. The reason the performance drops when there are a lot of particles on screen is simply because processing a large number of particles is very expensive.”

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KitGuru Says: As you can see, Slightly Mad Studios don't seem very happy about these accusations, after all, they could hurt the company's reputation. Do any of you own Project Cars? How has the performance been?

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60 comments

  1. Yes I do own it and the performance has been fine.. ofc I do have a 980 so..

  2. Nvidia are not sponsors. We just put Nvidia logos everywhere in the game because we like green color.

  3. nvidia paid them to post that (sarcasm) :O

  4. You know… I wonder if those R9 290X users were on an AMD CPU? I’d like someone with an i7-4790K and a R9 290X to check performance and see if it beats an i7-4790K and a 760…

  5. not long before we have GPU exclusive games. ‘console type wars’, coming to a pc near you! ffs.

  6. Stuart Scooby Ellis

    would be good if they could fix all the crashing !!! after everyrace my game crashes and ive seen alot of streamers have the same issues!

  7. Demon Highwayman

    Nvidia putting out regular driver updates has probably helped performance with their cards and newer games. AMD on the other hand haven’t put out a new WHQL driver since 09/12/2014…. 160 days !

  8. I really with people understood how hard the driver teams at team red and team green work, just making these games playable… There entire teams working full times just fixing devs busted ass games…

  9. I really with people could understand the level of effort put on by the driver teams over at AMD and nVidia. Both have entire teams working overtime, just to make these games playable at launch. It just so happens that nVidia is a little bit better at this, and thus, many (far from all) games run better on nVidia.

  10. There is a reason that both AMD and nVidia had to release new driver versions just for the GTA5 launch. The game would have been completely broken without the work they did on those drivers.

  11. Yeah, because theyre making sure the game is hobbled on any other gfx platform via the use of proprietary tools.

  12. HAHAHAHA!
    Funny cicle of Nvidia doing what nvidia always done. Thats why i never bought Nvidia cards!
    Amd should take care of its self. play safe and defensive. They shouldn’t do the same as Nvidia but be a symbol of honor, people will awake for these kinds of shitty things of Nvidia they will lose more and more respect. For gods sake AMD turn the table because nvidia has been the only option for enthusiasts, don’t let Nvidia be a intel on GPUs.

  13. don’t like the game? don’t buy it,that’s all you can do.

  14. Especially Kepler cards are performing beautifully on Witcher 3. A GTX 780Ti is even slower than a 290 and a $1000 Titan 6GB performs like a Greek tragedy. GTX 770 is slower than a 280X, just above the 270X.Go at Guru3D and look at the benchmarks they just posted. 700 series is already DEAD.
    Nvidia’s Kepler and probably Maxwell architectures need special optimizations for every game out there. AMD’s cards can do just fine with a 6 months old driver.

  15. good reference “don’t let Nvidia be a intel on GPUs.” think that sums it up

  16. intresting thought.. i dont have both sets of hardwear or i would run the marks myself just out of curiosity!

  17. Yeah. A lot of people don’t realize that the AMD CPUs are a real disadvantage in some titles, and they might blame it on lack of game optimization when really it just needs some more CPU.

    I’m not saying this is 100% the case, but users with AMD GPUs usually tend to have AMD CPUs as well.

  18. Did you read any of this article that states “NVidia are not “sponsors” of the project.”? All this shows is that the AMD fanboy was wrong and accused a company of something they haven’t done. I call PEBCAK on this one by an ignorant tool who was stupid enough to buy a AMD 290X and probably has a 1st gen i3

  19. Intel i7 3770k with 16GB ram and 2x HD7950 3GB boost = less than 30fps. Pathetic. GTA V at 6048×1080 Eyefinity maxed detail 60 FPS smooth gameplay with no drop-outs. Unlike P Cars, I don’t see the nVidia logo anywhere in GTA V. Something isn’t right….. Oh, and for the record, the Need for Speed title mentioned (that P Cars is based off from….supposedly), 60 FPS max detail. Something isn’t right here….

  20. Stephan Chase Morsanutto

    I love how people complain about Nvidia having made the effort to create things like PhysX and improve the experience for people who buy their products…You guys are seriously pissed that they spend a ton of money to develop new technologies, and then don’t give it to their #1 competitor ?

  21. Not only read this but read the links offered and everything about it.
    I have an i74790k and im using the hd4600 just for you ignorance. i almost bought a 970 g1.
    Im not fanboy i just said that i never bought nvidia…
    I know whats happening here but you don’t.
    They ve done it and more. You are just a little innocent boy who knows nothing about the world and agrees with such a low level company. The world is going to fall because of that greedy, they only don’t know that they will not survive either.
    This is not good for me, for you and for nobody. Take your time and read all of the forums.
    And just for you i never said that they are sponsors, even then they probably are.

  22. Gabriel MIranda

    Are you not adults, are you guys unable to attend tackle the issue in a level headed manner. All you guys did was either spout blatant opinionated claims or some foolish naivete. Though I have to agree that there’s something wrong here. Well Amd is about to use hbm so they’re bound to reclaim some market share just hope it would be enough for them to level the playing filed since competition is good for the market.

  23. it’s more that often games that use physx have poor performance on competitors hardware, regardless if it’s turned on or off.

  24. Adult is to be emotionless?
    I can talk in portuguese with you.
    Gabriel meu caro leia todos os links, do site e veja o forum do anand, existe obviamente um jogo sujo que muitas pessoas desinformadas podem concordar como sendo uma jogada normal no meio industrial, basicamente GameWorks da Nvidia tem código inacessível para a AMD e partir dai rola todo tipo de sacanagem, é como se fosse feito um jogo em MANTLE e a Nvidia nao pudesse acessa-lo. Assim a AMD nao pode otimizar o codigo do jogo, mas ao ler os links vc ve que foi tudo premeditado, a SMS sabia que usando o GameWorks ia capar a AMD. É um assunto um pouco complexo então por favor de uma lida com calma.
    Ser adulto nao quer dizer nao ter emoção, essa historia vem de muito tempo. Need for speed shift, batmans e outros jogos foram sacaneados e a fundamentaçao é muito contundente. https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/366iqs/nvidia_gameworks_project_cars_and_why_we_should/

  25. Just tested it with my own installation of Project CARS. My FPS is a little over 60 with crossfire 280X’s and my FX-8150 at 4.7GHz. My CPU usage hovers around 50% during normal driving. When heavy smoke effects occur in the game, my CPU usage drops to about 33%, and spikes up to 40%. My FPS drops to about 12FPS, and my GPU usage stays at about 85% on each GPU. There is an issue with this game and Slightly Mad isn’t going to do anything about it, because everyone hates AMD.

  26. There is evidence of Nvidia purposely “nerfing” the 700 cars to force upgrades.

  27. they spent a ton of money buying physx I guess. Making something actually impressive….. nah.

  28. I have 980s in SLI, and boy is it gorgeoussssss of a game!

  29. WHQL doesn’t matter in any way.

  30. it’s because physx uses code that purposely runs slow algorithms if a competitor’s hardware is detected. It contains nothing that can not be run on any modern gpu, they choose to sabotage competitors’ performance.

  31. WilliamNDuncan

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  32. Believe me Guys it’s not the CPU at fault here. I compared performance with my R9 290X against my GTX 980 and the performance on the GTX 980 was double. This is unacceptable. I was using an Intel 3770 at 4.2Ghz you can check out my comparison video if you are interested

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0rzZLfXAn4

  33. Good comparison! I saw that a lot at the start it wouldn’t load the 290X properly. I think a driver update from AMD might deal with this.

    Another thing is that the game may have extreme amounts of tessellation… AMD cards can’t tessellate to save their lives, so if tessellation is heavy, it might otherwise hamper their performance. But yes, such a poor showing from such a powerful card is awful.

  34. José Fernandes

    N1, I already follow your youtube channel and I would like to point out that you really adress important questions without taking any brand side… 90% of the other channels tend to favor AMD or Nvidia on gpus and AMD or Intel on CPUs wich at the end misslead lots of viewers in buying this or that piece of hardware. I think the name of your channel is well suited, and I recomend it for everyone… Keep up the good work…

  35. José Fernandes

    +1, years of having amd cards and then out of nowere I’ve decided to change and buy a GTX970… BAMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!! here’s 3.5gb for you instead of 4gb like we advertised… “never again…”

  36. Thanks Dude and I totally agree, the performance difference in this game by no means represents the difference in power between the two cards.

  37. Kind Words, Thanks for the support I appreciate it.

  38. chrisredfield31

    Techspots benchmark was done on an i7.

  39. chrisredfield31

    AMD CPU is no longer holding back anything in this year’s games. Games now use 8 cores if they are available. GTA V, Witcher 3, even PCars can utilize 8 threads. Also your logic is faulty. Not all AMD GPU owners are CPU owners and not all CPU owners are AMD GPU owners.

  40. chrisredfield31

    Again, this is wrong. AMD cards can tesselate fine, the problem is that Nvidia boosts tesselation to 64x which is bad on everything EXCEPT their newest cards. Yes they even cripple their own cards performance just so their newest ones get more sales.

  41. While you might be right about the higher tessellation, AMD cards are much worse at tessellating than nVidia ones are. That much is true.

  42. Uhh… no. AMD CPUs still suck. Please don’t try to tell me the performance issues with Dying Light or how much better FPS people get on GTA V and all sorts of other games is false. The more multithreaded that things get, the better, yes, but AMD’s CPUs still have terrible IPC compared to anything Intel has put out in the last three years, and it shows, even when games make full use of their chips.

  43. Thanks for clearing that up

  44. Just the point, i would like to say whats happening today for Nvidia. AMD for obvious reasons was the chosen one by all of the video games companies. As games are expensive to make, the developers priority is to make them run well on video games, as the video games have the AMD archtecture, Nvidia is using and abusing of this gameworks thing to boost their best archtecture improvement(and hide their weakeness) over AMD, the they already done it before, but now is getting so weird that is showing the weakeness fo their latest cards. Guru 3d posted The WItcher 3 vga bench and an 960 is doing almost equal a 780ti, while the 290x is doing very well for what it has been showing in later games crippled by GameWorks. Crippled because GameWorks is unacessible for AMD. Very dirty game from nvidia. For real, Nvidia is in a bad situation they are trying all the way to sell the Maxwell GPUs because they know that the 390x will be fucking great and probably adress the major diferences from the archtectures.
    Lets wait and see. I want to see what type of shity thing Nvidia will try to do now.
    And for real, i realy don’t doubt that nvidia make some developers develop games that prejudice AMD like infinite loops on the code just for amd or so. They are not for the gamers they are just for the money and EGO.

  45. Kit Guru left out a quite important point of the list…
    Source: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?26370-Project-CARS-On-AMD-GPUs-Clarification
    In game there are a number of company logos used, e.g. on billboards
    around tracks. These are simply there as recognition for the work done
    by those companies in helping to promote Project CARS at a range of
    events. The companies include :

    – NVIDIA

    – Panasonic

    – Oculus Rift

    You will find some Panasonic logos aswell, I’m not sure about Oculus logos, but there are Panasonic logos on most tracks where the licensing didn’t include the track-side sponsors/ad-walls

  46. Next time please copy the WHOLE list and don’t leave out the most important point (which explains the Nvidia Logos which are featured in the game on certain tracks/cars)

    http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?26370-Project-CARS-On-AMD-GPUs-Clarification

    • In game there are a number of company logos used, e.g. on billboards
    around tracks. These are simply there as recognition for the work done
    by those companies in helping to promote Project CARS at a range of
    events. The companies include :

    – NVIDIA

    – Panasonic

    – Oculus Rift

  47. So, how did Panasonic promote the game?

  48. You’re not right…. No way you’re getting solid 60FPS smooth gameplay in GTA V at that resolution with everything maxed out on those video cards, you don’t have enough VRAM for one. Oh, and for the record, the Need for Speed titles mentioned, (that P Cars is based off from….supposedly), have no where near the particles or textures used in Project Cars.

  49. Panasonic did used the game to promote their own 4K TV set, be it during convention (CES, etc.) and in stores where you could see a pcars demo running.

    NVidia showcased pcars running on 3 x 4K screen (hence 12K) running on 4-way SLI TITAN (the old one) in several event.
    If I remember correctly, they even had a rig made in a real Mercedes body at one event.

    Occulus did the same showcasing their own product during events with project cars.

    There was no money involved, but they were marketing partner indeed.

  50. I am not lying or exaggerating. You aren’t the first one to call BS but I assure you I am 100%. But I forgot to mention FXAA vs MSAA, everything else maxed including long shadows.

  51. AMD eventually acknowledge they are working on it now.

    AMD did include some tweaks for pcars in earlier drivers (15.2 if I remember correctly) which were not kept in latest version (15.4.1) and still no pcars profile in it.

    The modded Windows10 drivers (15.5) running on Windows 8.1 (because people think otherwise pcars use dx12) bring at least 15% increase in framerate (could ramp to 50% in some specific situation).
    Videos on youtube as usual.

    Strangely, AMD is hiring right now with this in the job description : “The responsibilities include analyzing CPU bound benchmarks and games to identify a variety of CPU bottlenecks in drivers, optimizing the driver … “

  52. No money involved. Do we really know that? We don’t.

    We can think many reasons for Nvidia getting involve in a game. But Panasonic getting an exclusivity in showcasing this game, promoting it’s 4K TVs and also banners in the game and paying not a single dollar? I have to congratulate them for that. Best marketing deal ever.

  53. You tend to forget that pcars is a self-published crowdfunded game (Bandai Namco is the distributor not the publisher).
    Getting free exposure during convention and in stores is one hell of a deal compared to a few billboard in a game.

    But, yeah you’re right, pcars devs screwed AMD so bad that AMD have admitted they are now working actively on it after seeing their backported Win10 driver on Win8.1 bringing 15-20% fps gain.

    I like how AMD is inventing new features and technologies which are not proprietary like Nvidia, and how DX12 would have take several more years to come if they hadn’t kick some ass with their mantle demonstration, but you can’t deny they suck on driver optimisation … and for years now !

  54. A crowdfunded game should honor the money it gets from everyone, not just those who own an Nvidia card. When you use proprietary stuff from one gpu manufacturer in your code, you know that the end result will favor that manufacturer’s products. It’s not logical to say that me and you can predict more accurately than the developers what will happen if the game engine uses Nvidia stuff. What if things where the other way around? 80% AMD market share, 20% Nvidia, a project cars that runs at twice the frame rate on Mantle compared to DX11? AMD would have been a team of demigods, and Nvidia a team of monkeys?

    Also being a crowdfunded project doesn’t mean that it only had one and only one type of money income.
    AMD does have it’s problems and they do manage many times to make things worst with their choices, I agree on that. The fact that they don’t come out often with at least crossfire profiles that are necessary for the 295X2 (don’t have one) is probably what I am going to accuse them the most. Because it looks to me a deliberate choice just before Fiji(i like them a lot and their open approach, but they are not saints). But I will not accuse them for performance problems on PhysX and Gameworks games. They can’t throw all their programming teams fixing Nvidia’s doings and abandon what ever else they are doing.

  55. Pcars has not received money from Nvidia from what the studio said (but it’s more interesting to say they have obviously).
    Pcars is not a gameworks game.

    PhysX is forced to run on CPU even with Nvidia GPU, and is only used for minor stuff like collision detection, airborne physics, etc. It was supposed to use PhysX Turbulence for smoke particules at some point, but it was never implemented due to time constraints (and it is pretty obvious to everyone seeing how bad the tire smoke looks in comparison).

    “backers” could see that AMD optimization was in progress for almost a year, gaining a few % each weeks (which were confirmed by some backers who are enjoying running benchmarks), with performances like a roller coaster for each new driver iteration.

    The latest drivers doesn’t have a pcars profile, and “strangely”, a quick backport to win8.1 of the 15.5 Catalyst driver meant for windows 10, give at least a 15% gain, and it’s not even the stable version.
    AMD has a really bad reputation in terms of driver optimization (struggling with muti-threaded call to CPU a few years back).

    Let’s wait for AMD to do it’s job, as they have announced now that they are working on it.

    I wish we had a third company with Nvidia optimization skill, and AMD ideas & openness.

  56. Just one thing to note in any moment. How can a Game developer who wants to sell games launch a game with that bad performance diference on one of the brand manufactures?
    Because everybody knows thats not the real performance diference between a 980 and a 290x. just think of it and how it sounds strange. Other than that, Did you read the links posted? You should, and should try to be neutral, imparcial, because I can only assume that you like Nvidia, (if you want to really debate and not win a conversation)
    I remember Crysis being like that, batman, Mirrors edge, Need for speed shift, and many others… Ops what a coincidence Shift had the same Slight Mad Studios, and they never though about optimizing the game to run well on AMDs! Why?
    Huuum.
    Talking about crowd funding you know that many people gave their money, you can see who and how much?
    If yes think… If im a company who wants you to do a game that Runs better on my hardware with no one suspecting about our business, what i could do?
    I could give money to many people and make them pay that money to to the crowd funding and it seems that i never payed anithing to them.
    But, worse than that. A game who puts Nvidia logos inside the game, a game that should run well on any brand. I guess thats too much of evidence…
    You know you believe in what you want.

  57. You forced a smile from me as soon as so implied 290X was on par with 980 (I would have understand if you compared it to 780 Ti). Just look at the reviews on kitguru between base 980 and custom OC 290X (which should be better than base 290) … in fact, it is way more closer the the 970.

    Yes, I know the game is crowdfunded first hand since i’m a backer since 2011 and saw what AMD did and didn’t do despite being inviting as technical partner on the development forum.
    I don’t know if that’s because it is a crowdfunded game or maybe because AMD didn’t foresaw how the game would be highly anticipated, but AMD didn’t involved themselves very much.

    I won’t deny the possibility the Madness Engine, on which is based both Shift and pcars, might not suit the GCN architecture as well as Maxwell, but frankly there is a limit to that. The quality of the drivers have a large impact on performances as for the profiles for each games (i’m still amazed to see the % gain in the changelog of any driver update nowadays) be it from Nvidia or AMD, the latter being know for their lack of optimization and the delay to bring new profiles/drivers).

    Let’s stop talking about “they are lying”, “no they’re not”. Your arguments are based on exposure partnership evidences, and mine is base on the words of the devs. No one will be able to prove anything.

    Let the next AMD driver be the judge … AMD is promising gain with catalyst 15.5 (and the beta already show significant results on pcars). But I bet even then, people will find some reason to incriminate Slightly Mad Studios.

  58. I never implied any parity of 980 and 290x, im talking about the percentage diference, relative diference. A 980 is equal to 2 290x like in this game. Hope you understood now.
    I have nothing more to say, i understand your point of view, and i will not contest it. I just know by evidence that Nvidia does not know how to play fair. I can’t say for sure that AMD is only a victim in all cases but generaly it is.

  59. i’m sorry that I’ve jumped to conclusion about your comparison.

    I just hope AMD perfs will rise with the next driver (or with some help from AMD to use use the drivers in a better way by the devs), in order to make the pcars community even bigger, having more person to play with.

  60. Mainly the 4K showcases
    http://www.dsogaming.com/news/project-cars-showcased-running-at-4k-geforce-titan-able-to-push-60-fps-at-3840×2160/